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Clare Louise Series 2 Episode 10 Year 2

Episode 10: Year Two

 

 

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Need to check if its right for you?  Please check the bottom of the page for the full episode transcript.

 

This episode is dedicated to Annaliese ♥.

Episode Guest - Clare Louise

 

My name is Clare, and I’m Annaliese’s Mummy. 

The day Annaliese died suddenly and unexpectedly aged seven, I changed forever.  Complex grief and loss became a part of my everyday world and I had to learn how to navigate this new path that had been thrown in front of me.

I’ve learnt so much since the death of my wonderful little girl, about grief and loss, about myself, about relationships and about being the parent of a child that’s no longer here.

At times it felt impossible, but it’s not.  I’m proof of that and I want to help you find a way to cope (at first) and then to live alongside your grief.  I want to help those around you understand how to support better and leave you feeling less isolated and alone.

Summary:

‘Are you kidding me? I’ve got to go through all this AGAIN?’ Realising your grief hasn’t actually ‘got better’ after the first anniversary of loss can cause absolute despair. The idea of facing another tumultuous year of pain and heartache seems impossible. 

Clare Louise, author of And Always Annaliese, shares her story about how she coped with Year 2 and beyond after losing Annaliese in 2018. With Debbie, she discusses some of the key issues that arise in this difficult phase and examines some of the theories and practices that might help you get through.

Resources:

And Always Annaliese, by Clare Louise

Midowed: a mother’s grief, by Debbie Enever

What’s Your Grief: Is the Second Year of Grief Harder? 

Marty Tousley and Grief myths: https://www.griefhealingblog.com/2012/02/common-myths-and-misconceptions-about.html

Cruse explains Lois Tonkin’s theory of Growing Around Grief

Gurm Bacchus, hospice bereavement counsellor, explains the Dual Process Model of Grief and more.

Death cafés across the UK offer a way to talk about death and loss more abstractedly than sharing your story

Find a local Compassionate Friends Support Group here

Find their online Community Forum details here

Understanding Secondary Losses from Hospice of the Valley

Cruse article Complicated Grief 

Want to volunteer but don’t know where to start? Check these out:  Volunteering Wales website, Volunteer Scotland website, and National Council for Voluntary Organisations for England and the UK. 

There are many podcasts out there. Here’s two around baby loss by The Worst Girl Gang Ever, and one for dads called Still Parents, and one produced by Anam Cara which deals with child bereavement more broadly and shares stories of bereaved parents. 

You can hear Rob Delaney’s Desert Island Discs here.

Better Health Couch to 5K app will have you gently jogging in no time as a physical way of getting some of that anger out! You can listen to your best music AND have the app playing, so it’s a win-win on the feelgood front.

For the more adventurous, check out Life Changing Challenges

The Loss Foundation Grief Processing Worksheet Bundle

The Compassionate Friends leaflet Living with Grief 

Prolonged and Intense Grief leaflet from The Compassionate Friends

The Long-term Psychological Impact of Child Bereavement on Families by Clare Vain, 2024. 

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5 Comments

  1. Ryan Morris 26 September 2024at12:34

    Hi my name is Ryan. I lost my son Henry aged 12 four months ago. It has been the hardest time of my life. Any help would be appreciated x

    Reply
    1. Tracy 26 September 2024at14:09

      Hi Ryan
      I am so sorry you find yourself here and you have lost your son Henry. I lost my son George aged 18 nearly 3 years ago and I understand how hard it can be. Please do look at our support page which gives you information and resources for Dads. We have a couple more Dads in our upcoming episodes which may be of help to you and we have Dave who spoke in episode 4 about his son George and what helped him. Take Care of yourself. Tracy (George’s Mum)

      Reply
    2. Debbie Enever 26 September 2024at19:55

      Hello Ryan, you might also find it helpful to listen to our very first episode for the Newly Bereaved. It’s a very tough time and you have my heartfelt sympathy. Debbie X

      Reply
      1. Ryan Morris 29 October 2024at13:26

        Thank you Debbie. I try to listen to 1 podcast a day. They are very helpful. I am also interested into joining one of the walks with other bereaved parents in the future x

        Reply
        1. Tracy 29 October 2024at17:07

          You can find walks for bereaved parents run by TCF here:
          https://www.tcf.org.uk/events/?catid=5
          If you subscribe to their newsletter they do some events for Dads both online and in person. Take care x

          Reply

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Series 2 – Episode 10 Transcript:

Debbie Enever, Host

Clare Louise, guest

[00:00:00] Hello, this is the Bereaved Parents Club podcast. It’s the club none of us want to be members of, but here we are. My name is Debbie and I’m a bereaved parent. This podcast is for all of us to share and celebrate the stories of our children and offer support to each other. Each episode will explore topics that have relevance to us as we navigate the world as bereaved parents.

Whether your loss was last week, last month, last year, or even last century, you are welcome here. And whether your child was a baby, a youngster, a teenager, an adult, or even a parent themselves, you are welcome here. Please be aware that each episode will deal with themes of death and loss.[00:01:00] 

Today I’m joined by Clare Louise. Clare is the author of ‘And Always Annaliese’, which is subtitled ‘Learning to Live with the Death of Our Daughter’. In her book, Clare covers a whole host of themes related to child loss, such as secondary losses, finding professional support, finding your tribe and much more.

And in each chapter, she shares both her own story, and then she usefully asks, ‘what have I learned?’ And ‘what can your support crew do to help?’ So, it’s part memoir, part self help, and this all makes Clare a great choice of guest to talk about the challenges that we face after our first year of loss. So, Clare, welcome. Thank you for joining us today. 

Thank you, Debbie. Nice to be here with you. 

Well, thank you and before we delve into the theme today, could I ask you to tell us some more about yourself, about [00:02:00] Annaliese, and about your story, please? 

Yes, of course. So as you said, my name is Clare and I am Annaliese’s mum, as well as, I’ve got two sons as well, younger than Annaliese was. She died very suddenly of sepsis in May, 2018, which I know is a month that you and I share. And she was seven years old, so she was very little. So, yes, it was very unexpected and sudden, and we found ourselves kind of catapulted into this underworld of society that we didn’t really know much about.

Annaliese’s brother was five at the time, and it just changed everything for him and for us. Until that point, you know, we had, you know, what we thought was a fairly normal, chaotic family life, had some challenges. She had quite a lot of anxiety. She was a complicated little thing. She was equal parts loving [00:03:00] and innocent and just charming and also could be totally defiant and argumentative and stubborn. And she really tested me as a parent, that’s for sure. But she was a really sweet, sweet little thing. And it’s just, as you know, and as lots of people listening know, it’s just not something you ever think is going to come into your path.

And suddenly you’re there. Um, and as you very kindly talked about my book, you know, last year, my book was published and I’m really hoping that that will help other bereaved parents, and also importantly, very importantly for me, which you mentioned, was about helping the support network around bereaved parents, because it feels like bereaved parents are a sort of layer of society that people just don’t know what to do with.

And [00:04:00] I feel like I have learnt a huge amount in the six years that we have lived since Annaliese died. And I want to just support and pass on help where I can. 

I think the book shows that in those intervening years, you gave some critical thought to what you’ve been through and what had worked or didn’t work. And now you’ve got those lessons to pass on, which is very helpful. And a link to the book will be on our listings pages. That moves us on to thinking about year two. Now, I’m about to go on a bit of a long ramble, so I hope you’ll all bear with me and that it will make sense. To begin, I want to touch on what I call layers of loss.

For me, the first year of grief is the first layer, and that’s characterized by shock and pain and disbelief, and also a kind of weird relief every time a first is experienced and survived. First birthday, Christmas, going to the shop, all of it. Um, you know, you’re [00:05:00] remembering the last time you did all these things with your child or acknowledging that the last time that you did that, my child was still alive.

So it’s all horrible and new. Um, and you’ve got through year one. So if you year two can’t be as bad, but. The year two layer now has a double whammy. Now you’re saying, Oh God, this time last year it was the funeral, the memorial, the inquest, the first birthday without them, and you’re saying, Two years ago my child was still here, and so now this feels twice as bad.

Two layers to contend with. And as the year progresses, you realize that, wait for it, this is all going to come around again in year three. And you do wonder how the hell you’re going to survive it. So today we’re going to look at year two and how it’s worse, and what you and your support crew can perhaps do to make it a bit more tolerable.

And I say year two, but really we mean [00:06:00] phase two, because it’s not that first year, and it’s not a place of complete calm and balance. And it’s a phase that lasts as long as it lasts. This idea that grief lasts as long as it lasts is important and really needs to be recognised. There’s a myth that time heals all wounds and eventually grief comes to an end and the idea that time is all we need is something that really antagonizes bereaved parents in lots of the online forums that I’ve seen and It’s much more likely to be something that you’ll hear from others in phase two So I wanted to share what a lady called Marty Towsley said in a myth busting blog about grief.

She wrote, ‘Grief is an adaptive response that is not bound by time. It never really ends. We don’t get over grief. It is something we learn to live with over time as we gradually adjust to the physical absence of the one who has died. Grief softens and erupts [00:07:00] less frequently as time goes on, but it can revisit us at any time and in varying intensity whenever we’re reminded of our loss.’

So for anyone listening who’s feeling a sense of, oh, I should be feeling better or getting better or dealing with this more effectively, we’re just reminding you that it’s okay to be where you are right now with your grief. And phase two is all about that gradual adjusting. Now, before I let Clare get a word in edgeways, I just want to introduce something else to think about.

I recently attended a grief workshop with an organization called Compassionate Sheffield, who do loads of great work around death, dying and loss. And in this workshop, the presenter talked about a couple of models of grief, and I’m sharing them now because I think even if just one listener thinks, ‘well, that’s a really helpful way for me to think about my grief’, then that’s good.

And the reason I mentioned them here is because they’re actually some of the things that I wish I’d known in phase [00:08:00] two, because they might’ve helped me to make sense of what I was experiencing. The first one is Lois Tonkin’s ‘Growing Around Grief’ model, which suggests that our grief doesn’t get smaller, but that we learn to grow our lives around it.

And that’s quite a simple idea to get your head around. I’ve put a link to it on the webpage so you can read more if you want to. Now the second model is a bit more wordy. It’s called the ‘dual process model of grief’. And the key idea with this model is that we don’t go one way through grief. We’re not following stages or tasks in a sequence over time.

But instead we’re constantly sort of bouncing backwards and forwards between being ‘loss oriented’ and ‘restoration oriented’. So on some days you can keep busy and you can attend to your life and put the emotions of grief to the side. And those are the times when you’re being restoration oriented. You’re restoring a sense of normality.

Even just for short [00:09:00] periods of time, then on other days or in other moments, you can be overwhelmed by your loved one’s absence or have a really deep pang of missing them. And you find yourself spending time in various ways with that grief. And that is when you’re loss oriented. And in year two, we’re very much still liable to be bouncing quite intensely and frequently between these two modes.

And as the phase progresses, what we might find is that the intensity and the duration of our visits to the loss oriented side might begin to lessen. But the dual process model doesn’t ever expect that you will follow a checklist and get over grief and not be loss oriented. Just that we learn to incorporate it into our restored and renovated lives.

And again, I’ll put a link to that on the website for you if you want to know more about it, but Clare, that’s a lot from [00:10:00] me. So, what are your thoughts? 

Well, it’s, it’s, yeah, it’s the realization that this is never going away. Um, this is, this is part of who you are now. I think, you know, I still have what I consider to be bad days or chunks of days.

But one thing I know is, that tomorrow’s a new day, and invariably I will feel better about stuff tomorrow. I feel very lucky that I have found a way to live alongside my grief relatively well. I think it’s very different for every person, and I think that’s one of the things that’s really important to say is there’s no benchmark.

There’s no right or wrong. There’s no, this isn’t a league table of how well you’re doing. The fact is that you’re surviving or, you know, you’re doing your best to survive and that looks different for different people and that can be a factor of. All sorts of things, you know, your journey to this point, your background, your [00:11:00] natural disposition, you know, my husband’s grieved and still grieves very differently to me.

I’ve got a whole shelf of books about grief. I am the person that looks for the model. And for me learning about stuff, it was how I dealt with it. And like, and my husband just didn’t want to face into it like that. I took great comfort sounds strange word in this context, but, you know, people that I had spoken to from The Compassionate Friends who were ahead, you know, we, we, we talk about this a lot in that group, you know, people who are ahead of you on that journey.

And, and I remember my very first conversation with, with somebody who read our local group and it was the first person I’d spoken to. It was the. But the week after Annaliese died and I, I knew that she knew how I felt right in that moment, but I also felt, gosh, this, this woman is in a place where she’s actually able to help other people and talk about what happened to [00:12:00] her son and she can actually get the words out. She can talk about it. And I was like, that just seems incredible to me. And I, and I think, I think it’s always good to have a tiny chink of light at the end of the tunnel, whatever that little chink of light is for you as the years go on. But particularly when you’re in year two, you sort of. You might be more receptive to that little chink of light, I think.

Yeah, I think that’s a really good way of putting it, actually, that you are a little bit more receptive to things, perhaps. In year one, either you dismissed or they just didn’t even register as well. There’s a lot of that. 

Clare, we’ve chosen an article by the organization, What’s My Grief, around year two challenges, just to give us a loose set of topics to touch on today. The first thing that’s mentioned is the idea in this phase two that we show ourselves less compassion than we did in year one. Do you want to say something about that? 

Yes, it’s so important and it’s, you know, it [00:13:00] remains important. I don’t know about you, Debbie, but it really remains important for me. I’m not very, not as good at making time for it now, but in year two, actually, I still wasn’t working, you know, my son was at school during the day and I had a lot of time in my hands.

I knew I wasn’t capable of working, but I found things that somehow just gave me a little bit of focus elsewhere, rather than just constantly going round and round and round in your head and getting nowhere. So I did quite a lot of artistic things. I, I found listening to music. Really difficult still, like you sort of said in that first year, I couldn’t really read, I just couldn’t concentrate. I couldn’t, but I started listening to lots of podcasts or I would listen to, I’d listen to audio books as I sat and painted and I found that that just gave me [00:14:00] a little bit of escape. I think if I was physically painting something and listening to a book, there wasn’t really the space for me to obsess on, you know, we went through quite a long, um, legal case as well. And so all of that stuff was going on, but I just wanted to escape from it a little bit. And, and that is really, really important. Whatever that looks like for you; it might be a bath, it might be a little walk. It might be watching something trashy on TV, whatever it might be, um, I think it’s really important that you recognize you’ve got to look after yourself and give yourself a bit of a break. You know, I think there’s a lot of guilt. I certainly still struggle with that. I think it’s very common for bereaved parents to feel a level of guilt.

And that’s a really heavy burden, isn’t it? It’s a really heavy burden to carry. It feels like a suit of armor that you would just occasionally like to take off.

I think the [00:15:00] thing in phase two is you realize that this is something that you are going to carry for a long time. So if you can now, it’s time to consider how you’re going to manage that and who might help you.

In year one, you might have resisted help. Oh, I’ll be fine. It’ll pass. I’ll cope. But now you can begin to realize that maybe you’re not fine. You know, it hasn’t passed. Perhaps you’re not coping as well as you thought you might and you need a little bit of help to take care of yourself. And that might mean reaching out perhaps beyond your immediate circle as well. 

You know, I mean, I think the reality, and I tell myself this quite a lot is that, you know, deep traumatic grief and loss. It’s, it’s like a brain injury, you know, you are changed. And I don’t, I mean, I can’t speak for other people, but I feel like I don’t necessarily react or respond in the same way to things as I did before.

Um, I was talking to somebody the other day and I sort of talked about it being a bit like a, you feel a bit [00:16:00] like a jigsaw puzzle that’s been put back together differently. So all the pieces are there of you, but it looks like a different picture because they’ve just all been put back together differently and coming to terms with that new version of yourself, which isn’t a new improved version, it takes some time. 

And that is some of what is meant by secondary losses. We lose the child we love, and we also lose other aspects of ourselves and our lives, like relationships, like our ability to enjoy things in the same way. I think in year one, change is often very dramatic. But in year two, those reverberations are still being very deeply felt in so many aspects of our lives.

I remember thinking the thing, the biggest thing that I would have to deal with was missing her and actually that isn’t the biggest thing I have to deal with. I think the secondary losses was something and there is a chapter in my book, as you mentioned on that, you know, that really hit me hard. I really, [00:17:00] I kind of felt like, you know, not only as my daughter died, but now everything else is different as well.

All my friendships, all my family relationships, that is a shock. It was a shock to me. I hadn’t in the early months, you’re so focused in on that one aspect of it that suddenly you sort of turn around and you’re like, Oh God, everything’s different. There’s a part of you that’s expecting some sort of return to normal, and actually it isn’t a return to normal.

That’s the thing. It’s a totally different landscape. Like you say, everything’s different now. Yeah, I’ve written down exactly that, Debbie. You kind of want a return to normalcy. And the fact is that that doesn’t exist anymore. And that’s, that’s a gigantic thing to come to terms with, isn’t it? 

Absolutely. You’ve survived year one, but everything is still overwhelming, confusing, because you’re not that person anymore. So your decision [00:18:00] making capacity might have changed, you might have lost all your confidence. So it can be really hard to care about yourself or others. I know I became very reckless in lots of ways in this phase because, so what?

I drank more, I made deliberately unhealthy choices, because what did it matter? You know, nothing mattered anymore, who cared? So that was quite destructive for me and my relationships. And although I think I’m pretty balanced now, six years on, I still have my moments, but that’s okay too. 

Well, I think the reality, I think the reality is, I think I was probably quite a difficult person to be around for people that knew me really well. Um, I think particularly family, actually, they see a big change in you and they experience a big change. And I felt like I just didn’t have the capacity to give like I had done my whole life. You know, I, I didn’t have the resilience for that.

Or I was using everything I had to look after my little unit that we still had. And I [00:19:00] couldn’t make, I couldn’t and didn’t want to make, you know, effort with other people. So, yeah, and I think as the years have gone on, I’ve, I’ve got better at dealing with that and I have found my level of thoughtfulness and compassion for other people’s situations has improved, but I still think I’ve got a different, I’ve got a different benchmark. We’ve got a different benchmark in our life, you know. 

So if you recognize that feeling like a different person now, it might be that in year two, you want to reach out beyond your immediate friends and family to some other people who will just get it. And by that, I mean, groups and organizations set up by and for bereaved parents, it might be that in year one, you absolutely weren’t looking or ready for that. But now you just might want to connect with those people who share your experience firsthand. I know groups are not for everyone. I mean, it took me three years to attend a group, three years into my [00:20:00] loss, um, because I was very anxious about it and I knew fairly quickly that it wasn’t for me.

And I did go on a weekend retreat and that was a bit more manageable. But I recognize that really that kind of thing just isn’t for me. I prefer doing stuff by myself, but so many people do benefit from the groups. 

Yeah, and I don’t do stuff face to face, mainly because I’m too busy, but I have found connecting with that audience of people, other bereaved parents, incredibly life affirming. It sounds so weird to say that we are bonded by this dreadful, tragic loss that we share yet somehow we are this little family of people that I feel like I know their children. Sometimes I dream about their children and I love hearing the stories about them and I love sharing stories about Annaliese and that feels, it’s really special and I am very grateful and again, it’s [00:21:00] different for everyone. My husband hasn’t engaged with any of that at all. Just not for him. 

So if you are busy like Clare or you just find face to face overwhelming like me, there are online groups and events or less formal meetings like walks or grief workshops where you’re talking a bit more abstractedly about your grief rather than listening to individual tales about grief. And there’s phone support too. So if you’re just beginning to look for groups and resources, we’ll put some useful starting points on the webpage. 

Yeah, I think you’ve got to find what works for you and you might spend six months just lurking in the background, having a look at stuff and, and you know, I’m a natural sharer. So I’m, I feel lucky that I find that stuff easy, but lots of people don’t. 

And there is no expectation. I think that’s the other thing I think from this group of people is there is no expectation and there is no judgment. If you want to lurk in the background and not share your, your story, you don’t have to [00:22:00] take what you can from it. I just can’t imagine getting to the point I’m at now without having had that support. 

So in year two, people perhaps aren’t checking in as much and also asking for help can feel harder because you feel you should be somehow better or more able to cope. So I think that joining the groups, if you can, is a good idea.

And you know, if you can’t, well, that’s partly why the podcasts have been set up, because it gives you a way to feel part of something without having to engage, which is the thing that suited me, definitely. And something that Aisha Peters mentioned on our National Bereaved Parents Day episode, was that, was that rather than joining a bereaved parents’ group, mainly because she couldn’t find anything appropriate for her at the time in London, um, she joined a cake baking and decorating class that someone had invited her to come along to.

So that was something completely different. It wasn’t about being a bereaved parent, but it was about helping her to get out of the house and do [00:23:00] something slightly positive. And that fits in with the restorative activities that I mentioned in relation to that grief model earlier, I guess. It offered her an alternative to staying at home and feeling isolated and loss oriented and it was an opportunity to get out and do something.

So it might be that in phase two, this is the time to try and find some things you might not have considered before but want to try. Or to perhaps pick up an old hobby. 

I think you’re absolutely right. I, I went from being somebody that was always extremely sociable and, you know, very constant, I think, to being somebody that just didn’t want to see anybody.

I just didn’t want to go anywhere. But I definitely feel like I can remember, I think during year two, yes, it was, I went to my first like social event, a party that was quite far from home and, and some wonderful friends said, come, we’ll book the accommodation and you come with us. And if, you know, they looked after me, but God I felt like a fish out of water. You just, [00:24:00] it’s almost like an out of body experience. And I saw the two people that I was with just the other week, um, we were out and we were on the train home from London and I was laughing so much. My, my sides were aching. And I said to them, you know, I remember that first party and I remember honestly thinking, I’m never going to laugh again. I’m never going to laugh again. Going to feel that again. 

And I think the only thing I would say is in year two, I think if you feel like you can, then trying to dip your toe in the water of the odd thing, I think is helpful, you know, ultimately, but if you can’t do it, you can’t do it. You’ve got to take it at your own pace. You know, it might just be walking to the end of the road and posting a letter, you know, who knows it’s different for everybody. 

Yeah, that social aspect is hard. Every time I’d attend anything in year two and three, I was aware that I was expected to behave normally. And I did, mostly, because there’s an expectation that this stuff gets [00:25:00] easier. But it does take much longer than others will realize. And every time I went to an event, I just felt on red alert. And although outwardly I was behaving normally, inside I was just yelling, ‘Dan died! Dan died!’ I just wanted to grab people and yell it at them because that, to me, was all that mattered. So I tried to block all of that out with alcohol and music and talking just so that I couldn’t hear my own inner thoughts.

And the next day, I’d be partly relieved that I managed to kind of fake it again and get through, and partly I’d feel worse because I was just kidding myself that I was somehow moving on. And I would say that that’s probably a fairly normal thing too, that sort of tension between getting on and not feeling like you’re getting on. I think that’s fairly common for phase two. 

I think it’s potentially very easy to get stuck in this phase. Or to only feel comfortable if you are just only taking part in those loss related activities, because they can make you feel like you’re closer to your child. [00:26:00] Um, and if that’s how you feel, then it might be that you’re experiencing what’s known as complicated grief, which is something we’re definitely not going to go into today, but if you want to find out more, I’ll put some information on the listings. What I would say is that there are some restorative things that you can do that will allow you to take your child and your memories with you into more positive aspects, but the only way to find out if that’s true for you is by having a go.

And that can be the really hard thing to do. It really helps if you’ve got people around you who will say, ‘Look, it’s okay if you fall to pieces halfway through this activity, we’ll just come home with you.’ You know, if you’ve got people around who can help you take those small steps, that can be really useful.

Um, I think interestingly for me during that second year, I started to want to do some things. I sort of forced myself to do some things like cleaning or sorting out Annaliese’s room. You know, I didn’t have to, I didn’t need that room for anything, but it felt to [00:27:00] me like this was an opportunity to tackle something, which I hadn’t been ready for until that point. 

I remember doing it. I remember it being very upsetting and very painful, but you know, I did it and I kept absolutely everything. I bought lovely big pink bags with little cats on them and everything’s in the loft. So I can get to any of it if I want to. I kept a few things out that I could touch and feel more regularly, but that felt like progress. And I sort of forced myself into it. 

And again, some people never do that because they don’t want to. And that’s absolutely fine. You got to do what works for you. In a way, I kind of wanted to know that I could do that and I would, and I would be okay. And I remember that feeling like quite a, I wanted to do it by myself and yeah, it felt very, it felt very significant kind of decision to try and do something like that. 

Same with sort of collecting her ashes. I didn’t collect her ashes for a long time, a long time. I just wasn’t ready. And again, that’s [00:28:00] another one of those little things that you think, okay, I’m ready to do that now, but it’s very personal. And I think, you know, the most important thing is to listen to yourself and not to feel that there’s any expectation on you or that you are moving at the pace you should. There’s no such, there’s no such thing as the right pace. 

No, comparing yourself to others will just bring confusion and misery. It really won’t help. As you say, we’re all in different places. And all we can do here today is acknowledge some of the things that might be going on for listeners and suggest some things that might be useful.

Because it might be that just hearing that one thing that makes you go, Do you know what? I hadn’t thought about that, but I feel like I could give that a go or I didn’t even consider that that might be my grief that’s making me feel that way. I just thought I was angry with the world or, you know, sometimes it’s just by hearing people talking about this in a general way, you know, you can pick out your own specifics, can’t you? You can decide what’s useful for yourself. 

[00:29:00] But just having mentioned anger, I just want to add to that phase two can be an opportunity to channel some of that, that fury or sadness or pain, it might be the time to, um, use that in a positive way, like physically challenging yourself to do something like climb a mountain and raise some money for a good cause or walk 100 miles or join a gym or something, because turning anger into physical expression could be really helpful, uh, turning into endorphins is really a positive thing.

My husband and I had many conversations, nothing that’s going to change what’s happened. We can’t affect that. All we can affect is how we now behave. But, but the anger is, I’ve never been an angry person before. I never really experienced anger before, but like proper spitting with fury, anger, you know, why this shouldn’t have happened. This isn’t right. It didn’t deserve it. She didn’t deserve it. All [00:30:00] of the, all of that stuff, which doesn’t change anything, but kind of, it’s good to, to recognize it, I think, in yourself. Shocked me. 

I remember it was about the September time, I think, a year, a year later, just over a year later, and I found myself, you know, I would just be driving and I would have these thoughts of, you know, I would kind of clock the traffic and I would think, I wonder if I turned the wheel really quickly now, I wonder if it would all be over. And that’s not, you know, that’s not a normal thing to think when you’re driving somewhere.

And, and I felt that quite a while and it, and it was then I decided GP and, you know, I said, I think I need some help. And so then I went out, you know, started to take some antidepressants that just allowed me to lift myself out of that place. 

It’s recognizing that things aren’t quite right at the moment, and I need to find some help and make sense of this. And it might be that going to the GP is the thing, or it might be finding a way to get beyond [00:31:00] your own thoughts. One bereaved dad I know, who wasn’t working after his son died, had enormous difficulty settling his thoughts and his body. He kept going for these long solitary walks, took himself off for weeks in the middle of nowhere, moved house several times in a really short space of time. And it was only when he got to a stage where he was able to put himself in the service of others that he actually began to feel a bit better because he wasn’t just taking himself and his thoughts with him everywhere he went and spending time with those on his own because that wasn’t helping. You know, he was just feeling bad, but up a hill or in a forest. 

But once he turned his focus outwards and began doing stuff for other people, he began to get some sort of peace. And now, you know, he’s a bit more balanced now, several years on. 

I think there’s something really powerful in that I’ve done things like paint stones and I, you know, painted lots of stones for other bereaved parents with their kids names on and, you know, [00:32:00] I would paint for the Compassionate Friends Christmas cards.

And I found doing stuff like that really important. It really, and the other thing that happened was then some point I became one of those people in the group who was further ahead on the journey, um, I felt like it was a real privilege again, it’s a very strange word to use in the circumstances, but it felt like a real privilege to be able to potentially offer a little bit of hope to somebody else because somebody had done it for me. And I feel that that’s what that group, The Compassionate Friends is about. It’s about holding people up when they need it. 

It is something you can begin to perhaps consider something really gentle in a way that suits you because it comes back to compassion and doing things for you. Although you’re doing something for somebody else, it will have a positive effect on you and your mental health and your general well being. Just somebody [00:33:00] saying thank you can make a huge difference. We’re just feeling useful. 

You’re right. I mean, it doesn’t have to be in service of other bereaved parents. Giving of yourself to others is much underrated. You know, it’s, it’s the best feeling when you feel like you’ve helped somebody else, but you’ve got to get to the point where you feel strong enough to be able to see past yourself, I think.

A very different way of tackling grief in phase two, if you’re looking for another way to try and make sense of how you feel or why you feel it and what you can do about it, comes from an organization called The Loss Foundation. They’ve created a grief worksheet bundle and it’s a give what you can charge.

So if you want to get this from them and you haven’t got any money, that’s fine. But if you can give a donation, then that’s great too. And this bundle is of worksheets and audio meditation files, of which you can use some, all, or none, but they’re all created by clinical psychologists from the Loss Foundation.[00:34:00] 

And what these do is to help you work through some of the aspects of grief, just with some gentle guidance. So it might be something that you can do as a way privately of just looking at your grief, just to examine what’s going on with you, how you’re really feeling, particularly if you don’t find that you’ve got an outlet somewhere and you’re just holding it all in.

So it’s another alternative in that turbulent phase two that you might find brings you a little bit of support. 

Thinking, as you’re talking, I’m thinking about my husband who, if I asked him to do a worksheet, would just roll his eyes at me and look at me. But I think you’re right. I think it’s about having options and things that work for you.

So, for example, I’ve just heard that this week it’s Rob Delaney on Desert Island Discs. So I’m just about to dive into that. And that’s something that I know that my husband would listen to and feel a connection with. 

There are podcasts too. I mean, aside from ours, there are lots of others around child loss, particularly ones for dads and ones [00:35:00] around baby loss. And you might feel ready for some of those as a way of finding other people whose experiences resonate with you as well. 

I want to consider social media in year two now. I think as I was coming out of year one, I began to join groups or follow influencers or hashtags around loss a little bit. Um, but what I learned was that as time progressed, I’d be having a good day and then I’d pick up my social media and I’d find another story of loss and I’d just immediately feel terrible.

And that’s a selfish response, but also I think fairly normal. You know, I’d feel terrible for whoever posted and their loss and then terrible for myself because it locked me straight back into being sad about Dan. So it was definitely a loss oriented activity. Um, and I thought this isn’t helping them and it’s not helping me.

So I chose to mute, unfollow, and just generally quieten my feeds around loss. And I really needed my feed to be sort of hopeful and positive [00:36:00] so that I could cope with my life and begin some of that restoration. Now I feel that I’m better able to choose my times to engage. So, I’ll actively decide when I’ll look on a group to see if I can offer any words of comfort or support, but I don’t let it dominate my feeds.

So one way of not comparing yourself to others is not to spend time doing just that on social media. Make sure that your feeds work for you. 

I think you, one of the things I’ve learned to be is a bit more selfish. You know, I know that sort of contradicts what I was saying earlier about wanting to do things for other people, but I don’t feel bad about looking after myself and doing what’s right for me. And a bit like you’ve just described Debbie, I remember in that kind of phase of things, I couldn’t read stories about sepsis and that was a real trigger for me and it still is to a certain extent, although I’m able to sort of broaden my mind a little bit and read and hear about things now. And like you’ve said, I found certain groups that [00:37:00] I joined just didn’t give me what I needed and that’s one thing I felt about the group that I found that I’ve stuck with is that yes, there will be stuff on there that is heartbreakingly sad and people have terrible days and you know, when you want to scream and shout, you can, and people will lift you up.

But one of the things that I think is really incredible about that group is that what it’s about is celebrating our children. And that feels absolutely brilliant. So it’s really special. And I want that. I don’t want to just think about the terrible thing that happened. I want to tell the funny stories about what she got up to and the things that she did, you know, and that stuff still is special and brings a smile to my face. 

And that’s the thing, isn’t it? It’s finding that balance because, you know, you’re in control of your own social media. Nobody knows what you’re listening to or following or liking except you.

So I’d say find the things that work for you and don’t be frightened to come away from the things that aren’t quite serving you. You can always go back another time. 

Yes. [00:38:00] Yeah, I agree. I agree. I think you have to use it intelligently and in a way which serves you basically. 

Another aspect of phase two is how we connect with friends or our support crew because even our closest friends won’t always necessarily realize how we’re feeling in this phase, even when we think we’re being quite open with them about things.

So because they won’t know how we feel, one of the things that we can do is tell them when we’re not doing great. And that might be face to face, or with a voice note, or by text. Just something like, ‘I thought I’d be feeling a bit happier, but actually I’m having a tough time. I miss Dan, can we do something?’

And if it’s someone you haven’t seen much of since your loss, you can always say, ‘I miss you’ because you know, there might have been some friends who you’ve just lost a little bit along the way or who are less able to engage or are just waiting for you to take the lead. And if you’re not really sure how to take this on, I think being upfront about it is okay. ‘I really miss you. I miss my child. [00:39:00] I’m feeling really unhappy and I don’t know what to do with myself. Can we do something?’

I feel really passionately about trying to destigmatize talking about child bereavement. And so, even if it makes other people slightly uncomfortable at times, I still talk about Annaliese, you know, not in a maudlin way, but I, you know, I think sometimes people expect me not to mention her name, and I’m like, she’s my daughter, of course, I’m going to mention her name. 

And I think if you’ve got the strength to do what you just said, I think voice note, I’m a big fan of a voice note, actually, because just hearing the emotion in your voice and the tone of your voice is so different from a written message, but at the same time, I know there are plenty of times I didn’t want to have conversations. I wasn’t ready for a back and forth. And I remember doing that. I think probably in that kind of phase too, that we’ve, that we’ve been talking about, you know, with a few friends, you know, we would voice notes to and fro, but it’s some, I [00:40:00] somehow felt more protected than if we were having a conversation, you’ve really got to listen to yourself and do what feels right.

Never underestimate how much people want to help. 

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that’s why you can say something, even if it’s vague and doesn’t really make sense. People are waiting for you to take the lead because nobody really knows what they’re doing with phase two. Year one makes some kind of horrible sense in that you know there are going to be firsts and people will be alert to those, but they won’t necessarily in phase two, so you’re going to have to do a little bit more work potentially than you’d like to, but that’s no one’s fault. 

And I think that the difficult thing is that, and I’ve said this to people, I’m not looking to you to make it better. You can’t make it better. I’m not looking for you to give me pearls of wisdom that suddenly release me from my agonizing pain. I don’t want you to come up with solutions. You know, I just want you to be there. That’s really all. And I think that’s what, that’s what maybe scares some [00:41:00] people and keeps people away is that they think I’ve got to find a way to make her happier or to make the situation better and you know, that’s not what we need. Sometimes you just want to do something that feels a bit normal, you know. 

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think as well in year one, there will have been people perhaps who’ve said, ‘Oh, I went through something similar and I’m here for you when you’re ready for it’. But who you might have just discounted because they weren’t necessarily the people from your immediate circle.

But actually they’re still there and if they’re a bit further along the journey, because they have been there, then they will be ready for you to phone or text and say, ‘can I chat now?’ So you might want to reach out to those notes and those cards from year one for that kind of message or offer that you might be ready to take up now.

Yeah. I mean, I went back to reading some, you know, I’ve got a big bag of cards from then, and there was some in there I have [00:42:00] absolutely no recollection of whatsoever. The things that people have written, the stories they told me, because I think, you know, at the time when it first happens, your brain is just in so much shock that it doesn’t know what, doesn’t know what’s going on, you know, it’s not taking anything in. So I think that’s really true about revisiting things. 

Clare, what are the top things that you wish you’d known going into or when you were immersed in phase two? 

I mean, I wish I’d known that I would genuinely have fun again, that I would genuinely look forward to things, not all things, but some things, and genuinely have a good time and, and I would laugh until my sides hurt and cry with laughter again, uh, cause I, that was just, uh, so I wish I’d known that that was possible and would happen in those early days and probably, you know, I was, I mean, I know the stats on [00:43:00] relationships through, you know, that where people have lost a child and I was very concerned about that, especially given, as I’ve mentioned, you know, we grieve very differently. So I wish I’d known that we would be okay. You know, you don’t know what the future holds, but I think if I’d have known at year two, that we would be okay at year six, that would have given me some comfort. 

And I think the other thing I wish I’d have known was that just how easy it would be for Annaliese to always be part of my everyday life. And it’s not a burden. It’s not, it’s just, she’s just still part of our lives and she is kind of all around, and I, I guess I wish I’d known that that would feel natural and that, and it would get to a plateau where looking at a photo of her wouldn’t, you wouldn’t just break down in sobs all the time, but actually you could look at a photo and remember the hilarious thing that happened when you had that day out or whatever.

I think that’s great. I wish I’d known [00:44:00] that things would feel worse in that second phase and that that was okay, that I wasn’t doing something wrong. I wasn’t missing a trick here. It was going to feel worse. And I would feel that there were two of me. You know, there was sometimes the functioning, going to work, smiling and being okay version of me. And then the person who was just physically wracked with grief in bed at three in the morning, you know, awake and exhausted, waking up crying, you know, that I would actually be both of those people trying to get my head around the fact that this was the real world now, and that was going to be an ongoing thing, and that it was okay to feel completely torn apart and strange.

And also that by letting joy in, more joy would come, if you know what I mean, that I could have terrible bouts of sadness, but I could also have moments of joy and calm and niceness and that it would be okay and that everything would more or less balance. And that wouldn’t take away from your grief, you know, it’s okay [00:45:00] to have a laugh.

I remember hearing this expression, it’s one, you know how you hear these things and a few of them really stick in your mind, but one of them was when. Somebody, or I read somewhere that, you know, tears are like pain, leaving the body. I’ve always been a crier when I need to generally when I’m alone, actually, cause I think it’s hard for my husband and it’s certainly hard for my son, but not, not always.

Uh, I think it’s also important for my son to see me cry and to know that it’s okay, but he doesn’t like it when I do, but when I’m alone, if I really want to, and sometimes I, you know, I go deep into it, I’m like, right, let me look at the pictures. Let me listen to the Disney tracks. Let me really immerse myself in this pain.

Sounds a really perverse thing to say, but I really believe that that’s part of my coping mechanism and I’m okay with that. 

I feel I’ve reached some sort of plateau now, I can spend some time really being with my grief, but then I can also go and meet up with a friend and have a completely grief free [00:46:00] laugh. And I’m generally in better control of both the loss oriented times and the restorative times. You might not think you’ll ever reach that point, but I think today we’re here as examples to say it is possible. And I think reminding ourselves that we can survive and be okay is important. 

You know, it’s a bit like, you know, what’s your recovery rate? If you’re an athlete, what’s your recovery rate to get your heart beat back to normal? You know, for me, it’s like, yeah, I noticed a different difference in my recovery rate to be able to be sobbing my heart out one minute, but then literally, you know, it’s five minutes later, if I needed to, I could take a phone call with somebody and, you know, uh, and, and in the early days that really wasn’t possible because I think the reality is that I could cry every day if, if I so chose to, I, I don’t, but when I feel like I want to, I do, and that can be, you know, Uh, the most inconvenient of moments sometimes, but it doesn’t stop me. I’ve cried everywhere. 

I think one of my [00:47:00] final things to share is that I would say, be patient with yourself. Just kind of go with your flow. And you’ve gone through the first year of grief and loss. And you’re in this place now where you’re going to be sloshed backwards and forwards. Just be patient with it.

You know, it might take a long time for it to settle down into smoother waters. And I’d also add that being willing to let hope and optimism in when they appear, um, that will also help to steady things for you bit by bit. 

And I think in terms of talking about glimmers of hope, this leads us onto something we always ask our guests to do, uh, which is to think of something that you’re grateful for. Clare, you’ve survived year two and beyond. So what are you grateful for? 

Yeah, I am grateful for sometimes really little things I appreciate. Listening to the birds and seeing the blue sky, things that I never really took much notice of before, because it just was, you know, incidental to [00:48:00] my life. It’s funny, so we have adopted again, so I’ve now got a three year old, uh, and I am grateful to see him playing with Annaliese’s toys.

I never thought that those toys would get played with. And there is something just absolutely magical and heartbreaking all in the same mini second of seeing him pick stuff up that used to belong to her and he knows that it was hers and he will talk about her. And so I’m grateful for that. I’m grateful for the chance to experience some of that stuff the second time around, I feel I know I’m fortunate. 

Oh, that’s lovely. Thank you. Is there anything that you want to add before we wrap this up? 

Well, a thank you for doing these. I’ve really enjoyed the ones I’ve listened to. And I think it’s so important for some people listening to a podcast will be all that they can manage.

And I, I really. Just want to, it sounds such kind of [00:49:00] feeble thing to say, to say it will be okay because I didn’t believe it when somebody told, when somebody would say it to me, I didn’t, how can you believe it when you’re in that kind of amount of pain, but I just want to say, hold on tight and, um, you know, you’re not on your own and, and whatever you’re feeling and experiencing is normal for you, and you just got to do what you got to do to, to, you know, take another step forward and know that there are lots of people around that understand and will support if you’re open to that.

That’s lovely. Thank you very much, Clare. 

That was my conversation with Clare Louise, author of ‘And Always Annaliese’. Please do leave a rating or a comment on whatever podcast platform you’re using. We really need your feedback to make sure that we are making content that’s right for our listeners. You can find even more content on our website, [00:50:00] www.bereavedparentsclub.org.uk.

This episode is dedicated to Annaliese.