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Find new purpose after childloss

Episode 03: A New purpose: Reuben’s Retreat

 

 

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This episode is dedicated to Reuben ♥.

Episode Guest - Nicola Graham

My name is Nicola Graham. I was born in Manchester and raised in Greater Manchester. I embarked on a career within the travel industry from the age of 17 and never looked back, I loved it. It was where I met my husband and subsequently, we were blessed with two amazing sons. Life dealt us a cruel blow in 2012 when suddenly and unexpectedly our youngest son “Reuben” passed away aged just 23 months. I made him a promise, as I do believe we have the ability to leave our world a better place than how we found it. Two days after Reuben passed I founded “Reuben’s Retreat” and it has become my life’s work.

I am proud to walk everyday hand in hand with my angel son and deliver his legacy.

Nic Graham

Summary:

Two days after the devastating loss of her 23-month-old son Reuben, Nic Graham decided to set up a charity giving families of children with complex needs or illnesses the holidays they needed to create the memories they deserved. Listen to Nic tell her story and how she’s built much more than she could ever have dreamed of.

To find out about Reuben’s Retreat, click here.

 

Organisations:

Reuben’s Retreat homepage

Reuben’s Retreat Bereavement Support

Midowed: a mother’s grief, by Debbie Enever

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Episode 3 Transcript:

Nic Graham, guest

[00:00:00] Hello, this is the Bereaved Parents Club podcast. It’s the club none of us want to be members of, but here we are. My name is Debbie and I’m a bereaved parent. This podcast is for all of us, to share and celebrate the stories of our children and offer support to each other. Each episode will explore topics that have relevance to us as we navigate the world as bereaved parents.

Whether your loss was last week, last month, last year, or even last century, you are welcome here. And whether your child was a baby, a youngster, a teenager, an adult, or even a parent themselves, you are welcome here. Please be aware that each episode will deal with themes of death and loss.[00:01:00] 

A New Purpose. In this episode we’re going to look at how child loss and the shock of the world turning upside down can drive some people to achieve amazing things. You’ll meet a very inspirational woman, Nic Graham, who describes herself as the Mummy in Charge at a charity called Reuben’s Retreat.

Having followed the Reuben’s Retreat story online since 2012, it was extra special for me to finally have a proper chat with Nic. Ruben’s Retreat is an organisation supporting families who’ve suffered the loss of a child or have a child living with complex needs. Nic’s going to tell us all about how the charity came into being and what support’s on offer now for bereaved families.

Nic, welcome. Thank you so much for agreeing to be part of the podcast. Let’s dive right in, shall we? Can I first ask you to tell us about Reuben and his story? 

Yeah, absolutely. So, Reuben is [00:02:00] ours, and wonderful, wonderful, gorgeous, uh, little boy, and he was born into a family that worked in the travel industry.

So, you know, holidays weren’t an unknown thing to Reuben and his, and his big brother Isaac. I wanted good, strong, old, like, biblical names for the boys. I loved Isaac because it means son of laughter and, oh, he is such a joy. And then, Reuben means son of the father. So, he’s called Reuben Michael after his dad’s name.

And in 2012, we went to Turkey on what my mum called an ‘all-exclusive holiday’. Reuben was 21 months at this point. And we had ten nights of just pure indulgence. It was the holiday that Reuben discovered that he loved cucumber. And he also found out that you could eat ice cream more than once a day. So, great memories, and for anybody that knows Reuben’s Retreat, and sees the photograph of Reuben in [00:03:00] the pool, that was there.

He started to be a little bit unwell then, but that’s the holiday that we like to think that, it was great and things were okay and he was well. We came back that summer and Reuben had, what we thought was a virus. So, we took him to the doctors and they gave him some antibiotics and he didn’t really get much better.

So, I took him back to the doctors and they said that’s because he’s had the antibiotics. And I didn’t have the heart to say we didn’t really have the antibiotics because he didn’t like them. And then he became more unwell with this, like, sick bug. And I blame nobody. Nobody could have known. You can’t think that every child that visits the GP is like, you know, incredibly ill.

I don’t know. And we had another little trip booked to stay in our friend’s sister’s back garden in Devon in a beautiful little village. We were going to go camping, and because it was such a long way, Devon, for us with two young people in the back of the car, I said to Mike, let’s stop partway, let’s have a couple of nights in Gloucester and break the journey up and have some days away.

And it wasn’t unusual for us to just pack a bag and go off and [00:04:00] book some leave and do great things with them. This would be Reuben’s seventh holiday. Bearing in mind he hadn’t even reached two. So, we went to Devon, we stopped in Gloucester on the way, and Reuben had been unwell again. And so, I booked an out of hours doctor, went to see a locum, and he said he’d got severe trauma in his ears, and it sort of like all added up, you know, the virus, the illness.

And they gave him some steroid drops for his ears, and I thought, oh, that’s going to be easier to work with. He couldn’t swim, he wasn’t allowed to go in the pool or anything, and we were like, do you know what, we’ll make do, it’ll be absolutely fine. We’re in the UK, we’re going to be safe. So, we headed off to Devon and had a glorious day eating fish and chips, and watching the parades, and going down to camp, find the crabs on the beach. All really, really lovely, lovely stuff. And then that night we had a barbecue, and he was singing into an upturned jelly cup. Twinkle, twinkle, little star. And it was just lovely. Life was wonderful. And then the next day he had a little tumble and became very, very unwell. And then what transpired then [00:05:00] was the worst 24 hours and subsequently the worst week of our lives.

Because that fall created something even worse than we could have imagined. To cut a long story short, we took him to Barnstable A& E at lunchtime because he was really drowsy and very unwell and really quite sick. Nobody was unduly worried. We went through triage and there was no worries there. That was lunchtime and by three o’clock that afternoon, he was on the high dependency unit, and we were heading for a CT scan.

And by three o’clock, he couldn’t walk. He’d lost the use of his legs. It was all really awful. horrific and awful and it’s amazing what your mind and body can do in at times like that just facing such worry and such uncertainty. He was airlifted that night to a neurological unit with a mass on his brain and subsequently went into surgery that night to release the pressure on his brain and he had a suspected brain tumour and that’s, that’s what it was and we lost him a week later[00:06:00] on the 21st of August 2012 and when you say 2012 it feels like such a long time ago it’ll be 12 years this year but it’s the blink of an eye. 

And our sort of lifeline for a number of days was should the worst happen we’ll donate Reuben’s organs, he’ll, you know, go on to save other children because I couldn’t sort of like make sense of why had he been gifted to us, this gorgeous little fella if we couldn’t keep him. So, we said right we should the worst happen. that’s what we’ll do. I’m quite a pragmatic person and just sort of tried to make sense of it all really and then we discovered that it was a tumour, it was cancerous and he’d arrested twice and he was really really poorly and he was on life support and one of the consultants said, ‘you’re not gonna be able to donate his organs.’ 

And if you think you can’t go to an even darker space you can. Like, you know, at a time when I thought, absolutely no way can it get any worse, and it just did for me in that, in that moment. And I just couldn’t bear it.

And I said to Mike, we’re going to have to do something. We’re going to have to do something. And he was like, you know, just do what you need [00:07:00] to do, Nic. And I said, we’re going to open a place for families. And we’d met lots of families on the ward, families of children that had never even got to go home. So where were their memories? You know, we were looking back at these photographs of, you know, him eating ice cream more than once a day and, and actually there were families here that had never even got to leave hospital and families that hadn’t got to make some of those memories that you hold on to should the worst happen.

And so, I said to Mike, I’m going to open a place where families can come and have holidays with their loved ones. Poorly children that, you know, may face an uncertain future. And he was like, right, okay. 

So, I had a plan, you know, and then it was all about making sure that Reuben was okay. You know, that we could, have a nice passing for him because when we were told that, you know, he had less than 1 percent chance of surviving, it was all about him and him and his brother and his brother’s survival after loss and, and all of that. So, you know, we made sure that that was, as good as it could be, and came home and just tried to sort [00:08:00] of think about how we were going to rebuild our lives and what we were going to do.

And literally, two days after losing Reuben on the 23rd of August 2012, we launched a Facebook page and said we’re going to create a retreat sanctuary for families to come and stay at. It’s going to be amazing. 

And then as that sort of transpired, when we started to plan Reuben’s funeral, his funeral was on the 31st of August, his celebration of life we called it, when I went to the funeral director’s, she shared about a mum. A young mum who’d lost her young daughter at the hands of another and she’d been sectioned under the Mental Health Act and I couldn’t bear it and I was like, gosh, this cannot happen. There was a huge lack of support for families that had lost a child, and I came home and I said to Mike, we’re going to look after mums and dads and siblings that have lost a child as well and help them rebuild their lives.

And again, he was like, yep, whatever you need to do, Nic. You know, it was very, we were on very different pages and that’s really normal for a mum and a dad to be on different pages. And that was okay as well. And you know, we’ve had a little bit of turbulence in that time as you [00:09:00] can imagine and well understand, but you know, we’re on the same page some of the time and that’s okay. 

So we set about raising funds but we started to raise funds really on and around Reuben’s celebration of life and not before because I wanted to raise money for CLIC Sargent who are now Young Lives vs Cancer because they’d helped us by allowing us to stay near the hospital for a couple of nights and they secured the funds so that Reuben could be brought home.

So I felt I owed it to them to a donation so we started to raise on and around his celebration of life and we did really well because when somebody loses somebody people want to give and they want to help and they want to do something and so that coupled with social media and the emergence of social media at that time, you know, Facebook was massive back in 2012.

So, all of that. With our life story and what happened and what had unfolded. And we had lots of friends and acquaintances and industry colleagues dotted around the country and it just took off. And before we knew it, we had a [00:10:00] thousand followers and 5,000 followers and we had 10,000 in the bank. And then we headed for what would be his second birthday, and we wanted to raise 22,000 and we smashed that target.

And then we were heading for Halloween and, you know, putting another target in, uh, to raise funds. And I said to the board, if we continue at this trajectory, we could raise a million pounds in 23 months, wouldn’t that be amazing? Because 23 months was Ruben’s age when he passed away. And we hit the 23 months in July 2014, but what we didn’t expect to do was to buy this beautiful old country pile in Glossop Derbyshire.

So, in the April before we hit the million, we bought from the NHS, Woods Hospital in Glossop Derbyshire, and set about planning. Carving up phases of how we were going to create this sanctuary for families. And Reuben’s Retreat is a place for families to come and make memories and have fun times. Families of complexly poorly children. Families that may face an uncertain future. 

And we look after families that have lost a child. So mum, dad, [00:11:00] and siblings after child loss and we’ve raised a significant amount now in 11 and a half years and with that money we’ve operated we’ve supported, you know a handful of people in those early days. That’s grown from four, five, six people to six hundred and forty-seven as I sit here today And the building’s not finished yet.

As you know, Deb, you know, we’ve not renovated it all yet, because we can’t afford to. So, we, each time we raise money, we do another part of the building. So, we started off doing phase one, the lodge at Reubens, our bereavement counselling and support centre. And then we went on to the roof and made the roof dry and watertight.

That was, so the lodge was 380, 000, the roof was a quarter of a million. And then we spent a million on the new wing. So, each time the fundraising pot has got to such a level, whilst we’ve continued to spin that plate of operating and helping families, anything surplus then has gone into the pot for build and then we’ve, we’ve renovated this big old hospital. It’s 1. 63 acres including the footprint of the building and we’ve done the lodge [00:12:00] but we’ve only tackled one third of the main building. The remainder is going to cost us millions. And eventually, when the vision is realised, we will have four self-catering apartments, luxury suites, for families to come and holiday and stay here.

And that is, that’s the goal, that’s the vision. You know, we’ve not realised the vision yet, but we’re still looking after all of those families because they need support and they need help and, and we run around 16 stalwart initiatives now. They’re constant for us, five different types of bereavement support group, including an active one, which is going out walking and we run peer support groups.

And then we run a peer support group for our complex families. We do animal therapy, art therapy, music therapy, counselling. We have breaks, day trips.We have a sensory room, and a pool now, and a playroom, and we do music sessions, And then we have off site parties, and we bring [00:13:00] seasonal parties to the retreat.

We do a massive grotto for the children, and bring Father Christmas over, and we have animals here, we have little lambs in the spring, and ducks, and little animals. Ponies that wear shoes and we have an accessible pumpkin patch. And, and it’s all about making those memories should the worst happen. And should the worst happen, we’re here to continue that care and support for our families after loss.

But our loss work isn’t fed by Reuben’s network necessarily. We look after any family of child loss up to the age of 21 in the last five years. So, any family can find us and they can self-refer or come through a professional. We go through a rigorous and robust process to bring families through and then offer them a tailor made and bespoke package of support and care in lots of different ways, shapes, forms, sizes, you know, dependent on what the family needs.

Well, thanks Nic for telling us all that. It’s a real privilege to hear about Reuben’s story from you, and it’s an amazing vision that you’re realising now. Before I ask you to [00:14:00] tell us in a bit more detail about the support for bereaved parents, I just wondered what your thoughts are on how we handle grief.

Do you think we’re getting better at talking about loss now, even compared to how things were ten years ago? 

So, I’ve seen some great positive shifts in the last few years, in terms of, as a nation, us tackling grief. Unless you’re, you’re, you’re some kind of hermit, living on an island, with your own produce, and having no friends or family, and no animals, you know, grief’s never gonna touch, is it?

But the, the chances are that for you know, the majority of our world’s population, unfortunately, we are going to be touched by grief because grief is love in a different form. This, they say, I don’t think it’s love with, with no place to go, but I’m seeing a real positive shift in men’s mental health, which is really good.

So, we launched our dad’s club during COVID, but it had been a long time coming and dad’s club’s great. It’s one of our. [00:15:00] best supported peer support groups in terms of attendance. They’re ready. They need it. They come in and they offload the hour and a half and it’s their space to do so. And they don’t have to worry about what they’re saying or if they’re, if, if they think they’re talking too much or, you know, then they don’t have to look out for their wife in that moment.

It’s all about them and it has to be all about them because they have lost that beautiful person that they created, of which there’s only one in the world, and their pain is as significant as the next person. And, and where, you know, TV and film and books have taken us, the world has often taken us to the grieving mother and less so the grieving father. And our dads are great. All our parents are amazing. All our parents that we work with. The dad’s club’s in person and they’re absolutely brilliant. 

And to, to bear witness to, you know, the mums and the dads in the room during our bereavement support groups, it’s phenomenal. The way that they look [00:16:00] out for each other and look after each other, comfort each other, lift each other, it’s a sight to behold. The energy in the room’s phenomenal. All of our parents are just amazing, uh, special people. Every single person we work with is just really special. 

Well, on that note, will you tell us about all the different groups that you offer to bereaved parents?

Yeah, sure. So, our bereavement groups run on the, on a Thursday evening from, usually from 6. 30 till 8. 00. So, each Thursday evening, we run one of our groups as a team, and on the months where we get five Thursdays, we use that Thursday to come together as a team, regroup and do something really nice, which is lovely as well. We have, we look after our team’s well being and reflective practice, that’s really important as well. 

But our groups run from, bereavement support group for newly bereaved families. So that’s families that have usually lost a child in the last [00:17:00] couple of years or have not been able to touch their grief for a number of years. So, it’s not unusual for us to bring a family through that have had a loss for longer than two years, but they might not have looked at their grief for a while for lots and lots of different reasons. And I run that one with a qualified counsellor. All our groups are run by a qualified counsellor and not because it’s group therapy or counselling, it is a peer support group, but it’s good to have a counsellor in the room to just help navigate some of those feelings sometimes.

That’s a really sensible and sensitive thing to do I think. I know there’s another group, Healing Hearts, who’s that one for? 

So Healing Hearts is for families that have come through bereavement support group, for couples that have come through, or individuals that have come through bereavement support group, and actually they recognise that there has been a shift and a change in their grief and their healing journey, and we call that the group where you continue to live and love after loss.

So, there’s a marked difference within the groups [00:18:00] because what happens is they start to then identify that the newer people coming through to bereavement group, it looks and feels a little bit different than it did when they first came through to group. So, we saw that we still needed to leave the door open and still needed to be there for families because they’re still having to navigate timelines; Christmas, anniversaries, schools, uh, change and, you know, he would’ve gone to high school, she would’ve gone to uni, would’ve left school. All, all those, the world keeps spinning and their child isn’t in it, and it’s really, really hard. And, you know, things like you’ve seen somebody eat their favourite dinner and you think, gosh, that’s really, really hurt that. So, all those things, and we lose our children in lots of different ways as well. And so, it’s coming to terms with some of that as well. There’s a lot of, what if I could have, I should have, why didn’t I see this? Could I have done that? You know? So, we explore all of that [00:19:00] and we talk about ‘even if’, ‘even if I’d have known’, ‘even if I’d have’, ‘even if’ it wouldn’t have changed anything. So that, those permissions and, and all kinds of things and those parents lead groups. So we go with whatever they want to talk about at the time as well. 

And we have the Dad’s Club then, which we’ve talked about. And then we have Tides. Which is our online version. So, our online version is for families that are maybe shielding another child that, that may have complexities and they’ve maybe lost a sibling to those complexities.

It might be because it’s a geographical location. It might be due to childcare and not being able to get out of the house. You know, or distance. So, we have an online version of our bereavement support group as well called Tides for anybody that wants to hop on that and, and families can come to as much or as little as they wish to.

And then we have Small Steps, which is our ramble. So, we run that from April through to October. We meet on the last Saturday of the [00:20:00] month and all go out walking and hit the hills and moors and take a lunch and drinks and that’s outdoor therapy and support. And that’s great. It’s an amazing, beautiful, beautiful initiative.

And then we run A Moment of Calm, which is a de-stresser. It’s Indian head massage and Reiki here at the retreat on a Friday morning with the wonderful and amazing Anna from Calmstones. So, we’ve run that initiative as well. And then we have for our bereaved families breaks, day trips, holidays, things like that.

So, we’ve had a family just stay in the Scottish Highlands and another family in a caravan in Wales. Because that’s another thing, what does going away feel like when you’ve lost your child? Because it’s not the same. It’s really hard to enjoy things after child loss because that meal out, that party, the wedding, the holiday, the weekend away, testing all of that. How does that feel? Because they’re missing. 

Yeah, it’s a strange new world you find yourself in. I think that’s a great initiative. In fact, all your projects sound incredibly supportive. 

Nic, I know you went full throttle setting up Reuben’s Retreat, and I [00:21:00] know that many bereaved parents are also seemingly charged with a surge of energy to do something positive, something really big, when their child dies.

But what would you say to any listeners who might be thinking of setting up their own charity right now? 

Um, I would say do it. Yeah, absolutely do it. But I would say the best advice that I never took was look after yourselves in it and create some space for yourselves in it. 

I think it’s a great thing to do. It’s incredibly rewarding. Take your time. Do your research. What other charities are out there doing similar things? You know, where’s the niche? I think, one of the biggest fears alongside grieving, um, for the loss of the children is that the children are going to be forgotten. And I think that what feeds that fear then is, when the child passes, there’s this, there’s this emergence of love and support and, and it almost feels like that wanes and that, that drifts and that, and that, that falls away, and for a parent that sometimes feels like their child’s been forgotten, and our children, you know, made an impact, so [00:22:00] they’ll never, ever be forgotten.

Obviously, most parents don’t set up their own charities, and the idea of doing anything at all some days can seem impossible. 

I think to breathe after child loss alone, and just, you know, on the days you can get up and get out of bed, is phenomenal. So, you know, give yourself a bit of slack. It’s, your heart’s been ripped out and stamped all over and put back in again and it’s broken, and it doesn’t work the same. Your body doesn’t work the same. Your head and heart, mind, soul, your soul isn’t the same after, after it. So, you know, cut yourself a bit of slack. Give yourself some space in it. And again, for any families that are going into new business or changing jobs after child loss, go steady, take your time. If you’ve got good support system, lean on that.

How do your family feel about your continued and extensive involvement in Reuben’s Retreat, 12 years into what is clearly a long-term mission? 

I think whilst, you know, the family are proud, I think, I think sometimes they see it as something that’s taken me away from, from them a little bit as well. But [00:23:00] I think I would have been taken away by the loss itself anyway, so I think it becomes a something aside from, well actually, you know, losing Reuben took me away from everybody for such a long time. I lost who I was in it, as you know, you can do. But I think that overall, I think, I think there’s a pride in it. I think, I’d like to think that Glossop and Longdendale and Tameside are incredibly proud of Reuben’s Retreat.

I mean, yeah, our links with the travel industry were and are a huge important factor in our successes and achievements. Equally, our communities were and are and continue to be all great communities of people wanting to give back. So yeah, there is, I think an immense pride and, you know, I often say that this is a flagship facility in Glossop and, you know, we hope to put Glossop on the map.

And what about private Nic? What do you do for [00:24:00] you? 

Private Nic took quite a while to find herself, really. And I walk. That’s what I do. So, we’ve got this gorgeous, gorgeous dog, Dolly. So, I go out with Dolly a lot. She’s three now. So, we’ve been walking, she’s, well, three and a bit. So we’ve been walking for over three years together now and we just hit the moors you know, so do a lot of walking.

Sometimes when I go out and about, I listen to a podcast. Mike laughs at me because he’ll, he’ll be like, ‘oh, here’s another podcast on death’. For a long time, I was reading and listening and watching things because I wanted to know where he was. Where’s this energy? Where is he gone? Why? You know, all of that.

So, there’s still quite a bit of that. I try and get together with the, with the family. And then I’ve just got some really, really good, lovely, fabulous friends that we managed to do quite a lot with, and travel. You know, I always say that whilst I had to leave the travel industry to pursue this beautiful career in the third sector, I always said the travel industry never left me. And so Mike’s still in the travel industry. [00:25:00] And so we have some beautiful, beautiful opportunities. I’m really fortunate to continue that journey within the travel industry and still be very much a part of that. So that’s great for downtime. 

Thanks for sharing that Nic. It’s lovely to hear about the person behind the public persona. Is there anything else about Reuben’s Retreat you want to tell listeners about today? Any final words about what you do and how you can help? 

I think just that if anybody’s looking to be supported or looking for support for somebody Literally just put our name in a search engine and we’ll pop up, you know, we’ve got a website, and we’re across all social medias.

So, I would just encourage anybody that wants to give or support or be part of it and volunteer or anything like that. Absolutely get in touch. You know, we’ve got, we’ve still got a long way to go and we’d love to have your support, but equally and most importantly, if there’s somebody out there that needs us, please just stick our name in a search [00:26:00] engine and get in touch. You’ll always, always find a kind voice at the end of the phone. We’ve got a lovely team here. 

Brilliant. Nic, because as bereaved parents it can be hard for us to feel grateful for anything, we do try to inject a little gratitude into our lives by asking guests to contribute ideas. So, Nick, what are you grateful for?

My boy that’s had a lot of air time. Isaac, he’s an absolute joy. He’s quick witted, dry. He’s man, but child, like he’s six foot now. And I just, it amazes me how much he’s grown in this last year, but incredibly quick witted and very funny and will often have me in a headlock at the, at the, you know, when I’m trying to cook his dinner, I’m like, really? Now is not appropriate. It’s not appropriate to put you mum in a headlock anywhere, but just, can you let me go, please? But if that’s his only show of affection, that, then I have to accept it, don’t I? So it’s a little bit different than cuddling up on the, on the sofa and watching TV [00:27:00] together. But yeah, he’s an absolute giant and I love him dearly. So yeah, I’m grateful for him and all that he represents. And still grateful for his brother. You know, I get to walk hand in hand with him and deliver his legacy every day, which is phenomenal. And, and we all love our dog. You know, and I love Mike’s relationship with Isaac. He’s a great dad.

You know, I’m grateful for, for being able to be here. I think you make peace with your grief, uh, potentially and eventually because you think, gosh, I can’t continue to live like this. I don’t know how long I’m going to be here for. I don’t know what my, my dash looks like, you know, so grateful for health and for being here as well and for where we live. You know, here, it’s absolutely gorgeous, like, where we live, and I’m grateful to work in the most beautiful, beautiful part of the world, and work at the Retreat, so, grateful for lots of things. 

Oh, those are all really meaningful and touching things to be grateful for. I was expecting guests to say something silly like, daffodils, or, comfy slippers or sourdough bread.

Yeah, but you know what? Sourdough is gorgeous, isn’t [00:28:00] it? I’ve got a piece today for my lunch. 

Brilliant. Well, thank you, Nic, for agreeing to be part of this new podcast venture. It’s been lovely to hear you speak about your gorgeous boy, Reuben, and all the work you’re doing in his name. 

Oh, it’s been lovely.

Well, that was me chatting with Nic Graham, Mummy in Charge at Reuben’s Retreat. As I’ve said, all the links you need will be on the episode listing and website. If you want to give us your thoughts and feedback about this or any other episode, please leave a comment on our Bereaved Parents Club social media pages or email us at hello@bereavedparentsclub.org.uk

We’re already thinking ahead to series two. So, if you have any suggestions for topics or guests that you’d like us to meet with or explore, please drop us a line and please do share the podcast amongst your networks so that we can reach everyone who might benefit. 

Finally, if you want to know more about my grief journey, you can find a link to my book, Midowed: A Mother’s [00:29:00] Grief, on our webpage.

Thank you so much for listening today. This episode is dedicated to Reuben.