Exclusive club dads dont want to belong to

Episode 13: The Exclusive Club That Dads Don't Wanna Belong To

 

 

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This episode is dedicated to Jordan ♥.

Episode Guest - Trevor Dwyer-Lynch

Trevor Dwyer-Lynch is a Professional Actor-Writer of Plays and Poetry

On the 19h October 2022 his world was changed forever when his daughter rang him at 9:10am to say his son had died in his sleep. He has started a podcast called THE EXCLUSIVE CLUB THAT DADS DONT WANNA BELONG TO… reaching out to Dads who find it difficult to talk about the loss of their Son or Daughter. He is in the process of having his Grief Poetry published in a book titled RAW, referencing how he feels, and how people made him feel after Jordan transitioned to the spirit world.

 

 

Summary:

Dads want to join golf clubs and football clubs. But for those men who find themselves experiencing child loss, Trevor Dwyer-Lynch has set up ‘The Exclusive Club Dad’s Don’t Wanna Belong To’. Today Trevor tells us about how setting up his podcast has given him a way of expressing his own feelings, and hopefully helping other men acknowledge and express theirs. There’s also Buddhism and poetry…

Resources:

The Exclusive Club That Dads Don’t Wanna Belong To podcast

For more understanding about different faiths and their beliefs around death, Child Bereavement UK has a dedicated information page.

Poetry events in the UK and Ireland are often listed here

Cruse Scotland have a useful article about poetry writing in grief

The Compassionate Frends often prints poems written by bereaved parents in their magazine Compassion.

Read more about Angels United FC, and there’s lots more similar teams run through SANDS.

Three Dads Walking do lots of work around suicide prevention, and you can read about them here.

Reuben’s Retreat runs a Dad’s group once a month.

ANDYSMANCLUB are a men’s suicide prevention charity, offering free-to-attend peer-to-peer support groups across the United Kingdom and online. We want to end the stigma surrounding men’s mental health and help men through the power of conversation. 

Mentell is a UK charity that provides men’s groups for males aged 18+ to talk in a safe and confidential space, free from advice and judgement. Sessions are held both online and face to face. 

 






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Episode 13 Transcript:

THE EXCLUSIVE CLUB FOR DADS

Debbie Enever, host

Trevor Dwyer-Lynch, guest

[00:00:00] Hello. This is the Bereaved Parents Club podcast. It’s the club none of us want to be members of, but here we are. My name is Debbie and I’m a bereaved parent. This podcast is for all of us to share and celebrate the stories of our children and offer support to each other. Each episode will explore topics that have relevance to us as we navigate the world as bereaved parents.

Whether your loss was last week, last month, last year, or even last century, you are welcome here. And whether your child was a baby, a youngster, a teenager, an adult, or even a parent themselves, you are welcome here. Please be aware that each episode will deal with themes of death and loss.[00:01:00] 

Today, we’re joined by Trevor Dwyer Lynch. Trevor’s an actor, poet, stand up comedian, football coach, writer, and podcast host. He describes himself as mixed race – half Moss Side, half Salford. And he seems to know everyone. He’s here to share his story about the loss of his son, Jordan, and how he’s finding his ways to manage grief and to help those who’ve become members of the Exclusive Club Dads Don’t Wanna Be Members Of.

Trevor, thank you so much for joining me today. We’ll talk about the podcast and more shortly, but first, can I ask you to tell us a bit about yourself, about your relationship with Jordan and the impact of his loss on you? 

Yeah, I’m a professional actor, been an actor for over 35 years. My son Jordan is 41 when he transitioned. I call it transition. People obviously say oh when he died or when he passed on. I’ve been following the Buddhist philosophy [00:02:00] for around about 20 odd years in and out type thing. So I chant ‘nam myoho renge kyo’, which basically gives me the connection with the universe, really, and what I believe the universe stands for and what goes about.

A lot of people will say, ‘oh, don’t you believe in everything happens for a reason?’ And I say, yes, but whether that pertains to life and death, that’s the question that I can’t really answer in terms of my, my son, you know, who died suddenly he was 41. Jordan was fit and healthy. He was due to go to work early of the morning of his transition and his son, 19 months, did as 19 month olds do, couldn’t sleep at night and was playing about and so obviously he got into their bed. Obviously, Jordan couldn’t rest ‘cause he was up early. So he said [00:03:00] to his partner, ‘I’m going to go and sleep downstairs. Um, obviously by the time we get up, I’ll probably be gone’. Whatever. Now, in usual scenarios like this, um, sometimes he would go downstairs and his partner, um, would go down with, with his son, uh, Jacob and place him on Jordan’s chest, you know and that would, that would wake him up. He’d play about with his ears or whatever like that. So really when, when she’d got up, expecting him to be gone, he was still on the settee, you know, um, so she did the normal to place Jacob, his son, on his chest. There’s no reaction, nothing was happening and you know, whatever.

So obviously – blind panic for the girl. I can only imagine, you know, being there and she obviously realised that he’d gone, he’d died. And so she was obviously trying to administer CPR at the same time, looking after his child, you know what I mean, in the corner. So that was [00:04:00] pretty traumatic for her really and sad.

Um, I got a phone call at 10 past nine from my daughter. We live about 40 minutes away from where Jordan, where Jordan lived. 

I’d have to say at this point, at the time of his transition, Jordan and I weren’t speaking. We’d had a fallout. So we’d not spoken for about 18 months. So our relationship was quite up and down. I’m divorced from his mum. I don’t know if he was hurt by that. He was, he was, he was hurt by that. I think, you know, I think it’s probably, I don’t think until you actually go through divorce, um, that we realise that probably the, the trauma that it does affect, the effect on our children. Do you know what I mean?

Cause I think with Jordan, I know it was a case of like, you know, obviously speaking to his mum later on and his sister, it was just thought me and his mum would be together forever, you know what I mean? But as we know in life, it doesn’t always happen. 

You know, I’ve been through a lot of things in my life. I’m diagnosed with complex [00:05:00] PTSD, been a physically abused child. I’ve been in the army, I’ve been in combat situations. So obviously that has an effect on you and sort of the way that you are relationships, et cetera, you know what I mean? And stuff. Obviously, me and his mum, we’d got a divorce and things were, you know, amicable.

And then, Jordan and I just had an argument one day, we just ended up not speaking. You know, I text him, I rang him, nothing, didn’t reciprocate, might see him in the street, he’d turn and go the other way, and then other times it’s, he’d begrudgingly say, ‘all right, dad’, or whatever, you know what I mean, ‘you all right’, sort of thing.

So, ten past nine when I got that news and my daughter was here, she come and said, dad, you’ve got to come, you’ve got to come. They say Jordan’s had a heart attack and he’s died, which again, it’s just, oh my, you know, you just, everything was a bit of a blur really. So I had to go and pick up my daughter who lived about 20 minutes from me.

And then we had this long, the longest drive ever, like you [00:06:00] say, which is Middlewich. It was about 40 minutes away, you know. And obviously in that time, she’s hysterical and she’s crying and I’m crying and I’m trying to ask her questions. But there’s, nothing’s coherent coming out of it because it’s all jumbled and she’s texting, you know, her mum or whatever and we get to the hospital.

She said, ‘just drop me at reception and you park up and then I’ll come and tell you where he is’. I’d literally gone into the, into the bay, the car park bay, and she was at the door. And I’m like, ‘what’s, what’s, what’s going on?’ And she’s going, ‘he’s not here, dad, he’s not here, dad. He’s at home’. It’s funny how your mind and your brain processes things. When they’re saying that to me, he was at home, he’s not here, in my head, uh, Deb, I’m going, ‘Oh, he’s all right’. Yeah. You know, he’s all right. You know what I mean? Or if he has a heart attack, obviously they’ve been around the paramedics and they’ve sorted him and he’s all right. So that was what’s in my, my head.[00:07:00] 

So in some ways, obviously you’re still like high emotion. But in other ways, I’m thinking, well, it’s a bit of relief. Oh my, you know what I mean? Oh my God, he’s saved him. Cause on the way there, I’m chanting to the universe. And when I chant ‘nam myoho renge kyo’ to universe, it asks the universe, to listen, and obviously to come back with stuff, do you know what I mean? And I’m chanting ‘nam myoho renge kyo’ to save him, save him. So when she said to me, He’s not here dad, he’s at home. I’m thinking, wow, the universe. It’s answering me. 

So that’s another 25 minutes from the hospital to his house. Which is just a horrendous time. Remember, we’ve not spoken for like 18 months. So it was the first time I’ve been to the house and when we pulled up, his partner was there with his son, which is my grandson who I’ve not seen, I’ve never seen.

So the door opens and she’s there with the son and I’m like, Oh my God, look at him. Look at Jacob because he was, you know, when they say you’re doppelgangers, you know, people say to me about your son looking like you. Well, I’m. Never really got that. I was like, [00:08:00] no, it doesn’t, it doesn’t. She opened the door and there is Jacob 18 months in her arms. I’m like, oh my days. Look at him. He’s unbelievable. He’s just like him. 

So I’m overwhelmed because the first time I’ve seen my grandson as well. So I’m hugging him, not even thinking about, I’m just in this like vortex, for want of a better word. And as I look to the left, my ex wife, Joanne, is holding Jordan who’s under a quilt and in my head, Debbie, I’m thinking she’s comforting him, right? She’s comforting him. He’s all right. He’s just having a rest. And then she looks at me, didn’t she? And it’s just that look, isn’t it? You know, um, and he’d gone. And, um, I remember, but my daughter said, I let out this guttural scream. Do you know what I mean? And, um, doing CPR to him and talking to him, ‘come on, come on, Jordan, wake up, come on’ and blah, blah, blah. 

It [00:09:00] was all in that, that thing, that melee, you know, them saying, ‘oh, he’s at home, dad’, and I’m seeing his son. And so that was it, really. It was just a case of like, your world from that minute, it’s completely changed, isn’t it? You know, his mum’s hysterical and obviously his sister and his partner, you know what I mean?

And oh my days, it was just, so then we have to obviously wait around then for the coroner’s people to come and get him. And my boy is, my boy is just there on the, on the floor and you know what I mean? And this quilt and his face, you know what I mean? And he was like, it was really weird. He was like, I’d like a, it was like I had a smile on his face. It was really strange. It was really strange. He was, but he was so at peace type of thing. Do you know what I mean? And even then it was like, he just looks asleep. 

And I remember getting up – I needed to go to the bathroom – and the quilt [00:10:00] moved. And again, because he’s mixed race and Jordan looks, he’s like, more like me, but in terms of genetics, my daughter Tia doesn’t look mixed race. My daughter looks, she’s very light, what we call light skinned in the black culture. And she could, she could pass for white. But Jordan looked like me, just probably as dark as me, a little bit more. And the quilt moves and his leg was white. You know, so you, you know, obviously the, the transformation already was beginning too.

But in, you know, I mean, and, uh, I just remember going to the loo and it was, you know, sobbing like mad and then I came back downstairs again and, you know, it’s ‘My son, my son is no longer here’ type of thing, Deb. And gotta be respectful cos his partner’s with him and his and his son, you know what I mean?

And my ex wife said, ‘okay, can we just, can we leave Dara his partner with him for a bit’ and it’s like, yeah, of course, and we went into the kitchen and again, you know, like I said, you know, at that stage [00:11:00] we’re grieving parents and we were hugging each other, you know what I mean? And we were as one again as you can be in grief, do you know what I mean?

And I speak about this on, you know, on my podcast and after speaking to a lot of people and doing research, you know, in the West, we have this thing where chronologically we presume, assume that our great grandparents will go before us, our great grandparents, our grandparents, our parents, then us, then our children, whatever.

So chronologically, that’s how we see life, alright? That’s how life is depicted with us. But in the East, you know, uh, whether it be Japanese Buddhism, whether it be Hinduism, whether it be Sikhism, even Judaism as I’ve spoke to Jewish friends. They talk about life being the most precious thing, which it is. But also the understanding that life begins in the womb and it can also end in the womb. Or you can live to be 125 or whenever. And that’s talked about within their families, within their [00:12:00] cultures. And in the West, we don’t do that. So when a scenario like this happens and it’s flipped on its head and our children go before us, it’s just mind blowing. 

Now, like my friends who were Buddhists, who were Sikhs, who were Hindus, Jewish have said to me, we talk about life being precious, but it is also as traumatic as you are experiencing it, but, we know from the off, that could be the possibility. 

But like Jordan, Jordan was a Muslim, my son reverted to Islam. 11 years ago, which was unbelievable, such a positive. He’d been through a bit of a trauma where he was with, he was with his partner for three years and they had a little girl we thought was our granddaughter. He thought it was his daughter. Uh, when he spoke, it turned out DNA that it wasn’t his, you know what I mean? So that was like a bereavement for him. And a lot of his friends, two of his close friends were with these two young lads who were Muslims and, um, [00:13:00] helped him. It was unbelievable. 

And he came to me one day and he said, dad, you know what, I’m thinking about looking at Islam and I went, and I’m like, yeah, and what, you know, I support you, whatever you want to do, as long as it’s not the extremist stuff, do you know what I mean? Because that’s not real Islam. Having my brother, he’d been a Muslim for over 40 years. My cousin, he was a Muslim for 40 years. So knowing the little bits about what it entails, but all we get from mainstream media is obviously the negative. So when he said that, I was like, wow. And it helped him tremendously. You know, it helped him tremendously. 

So for me to sort of like, try and get my head around this thing about why has my son gone before me and things have been for a reason that I couldn’t equate that with life, I’m speaking to a Buddhist as well, who have been into it a lot longer than me and there’s different schools of Buddhism, you know, and they were saying, yeah, well, it is very hard for you to understand, but you know, that is what it is.

And Muslims believe that it’s preordained as well. The beginning and the end, but for me, I [00:14:00] still couldn’t comprehend it. So that brings me to being a bereaved parent and, uh, one of the dads, the exclusive club that dads don’t want to belong to. And once you’re in it, unfortunately there isn’t any getting out of it.

There is simply, hopefully finding a way to, to manage it. I think that’s all we can do as bereaved parents. No, one’s ever going to be chuffed about it, are they? But if we can find ways to manage it, then, then that’s wonderful. Because I think, as you’ve probably found already, you meet some extraordinary people who are members of this club, and it feels like a real privilege to hear and share those stories. Obviously, you’ve set up a podcast. How did that come about? 

Well, you see, again, another bit of a tragedy. Feels like I’m a Grim Reaper, don’t I? Um, so over 20 years, I’ve had six – it’s actually, it’s actually eight now – at the time I had six mates who had lost their children, either sons or daughters. Now, if you and I have been mates for years, but I’ve not seen you for [00:15:00] years, I went to school, I meet someone and go, ‘Hey Trev, you heard about Debbie, don’t you?’ ‘What about her?’ ‘Oh, she, she lost her child.’ ‘You’re joking’…but I’ve not seen you for 30, 30 years or so you go, ‘Oh, right. Okay’. 

But then when you’ve got, six mates who the common denominator was sport. We played football with each other. We played football against each other. We all went in the same boozer on the weekend for the football banter.

Suddenly one lad loses his son and then you’re there to support him. You’re on, everyone was there on the periphery. And then a couple of years later, another one. And then over 20 years, six of our mates have lost a child, son or daughter, you know what I mean? And you’re like, what? And we’ve all, I’ve always been on the periphery of, I’ve always been on their shoulder, supporting them, supporting them, supporting them.

And only two months before Jordan transitioned, I was there supporting a friend who’d lost his son by a heart attack. Two months. And then suddenly I wake up 10 past nine, 19th of October, through a phone call my [00:16:00] daughter. Bang. So now there, I become a member of this club I don’t want to belong to, you know, and of the six mates probably there’s only maybe be able to speak in depth with maybe two of them who talked. 

One of them in particular was, was, was really, really helpful. We play football together. We managed teams together. And I said to him, I’ve lost my gran, who was like my mom who brought me up. I’ve lost my biological mum. I’ve lost my brother. And that pain’s intense. Tell me what am I to expect here? And to be fair with him, he was brilliant. You know, we sat, we cried, we talked, and like you said, Deb, that pain that you feel is intense. But this pain surpasses that tenfold. 

I have to add here, people often say to me, well, why didn’t you start a podcast about parents? Why didn’t you start a podcast in terms of mum and dads? And I say, this is not, it’s not degrading mum’s grief because as a man, [00:17:00] Debbie, I’m jealous of how you women operate in terms of you gravitate to each other, right?

Yeah. You can talk to your mates, to your sisters, to whoever, to any woman. I’ve got a headache. Me hair’s not right. I’m skin. Health issues, sexual problems, right? Yeah. Yeah. A lot. Let’s be honest. You know what I mean? With those men, you go, anyway, ‘Trev, how are you doing? Yeah, I’m all right, thanks. Have a pint’.

You might’ve lost someone. You might’ve lost your job. You might’ve been redundant. You might’ve been depressed. Yeah. Because where this has to be stoic, heroic generation, not even generation, things that have been passed down to us, you know. Like I say, I’m from Moss Side and Salford, you know, two of the hardest areas in the UK and coming across grief throughout my life.

And, you know, the flashbacks when I’ve seen, not just men, but some women who crack on with it, you know, they’ve lost someone, but the next day they’re out doing the graft again, or they’re doing whatever. And I know there’s a shift, don’t get me wrong, there is a shift in men trying to talk more now, but there’s still a hell of a lot that don’t.

[00:18:00] So, when I spoke to Andy and he said, listen, this is what I experienced, and I’m not saying it’ll happen chronologically, but I felt anger, I felt bitterness, I felt in denial. You know, all the different facets of grief. I honestly believe that grief’s a cycle, Debbie. It is no certain, you know, five stages of it.

I think it just as you know, we just, I call it my tsunami, my tsunami wave. And now, I’m talking to you like now before I got a little bit upset, but my metaphor is when I get upset about Jordan now is that he connects with me, he’s here in the room with me, you know. And three weeks ago, I met a mate I’ve not seen for 10 years, and he never knew about Jordan, and he was asking about, ‘Oh, how’s your Jordan, how’s he doing, how’s his football’, and I had to break the news, you know, and he was devastated, he was crying, he was upset, and he said, ‘Oh, I’m sorry, were you not upset?’ And I said, ‘No, because you know what?’ And he explained to him that scenario, that metaphor, I said, ‘he might be with his son now, he might be with his mum, he might be with his, his partner’. When I got upset talking to him, it’s like, [00:19:00] he’s here with me. That’s my metaphor. You know what I mean? We get that because we’ve been through the same, same experience, you know?

So, Andy was really good in talking to me about that and what I was to expect from this grief process in terms of losing a child. And like I said, when people ask me that question, listen, I respect. and recognize the grief that you mums go through. You carried this child for nine months, you know, it’s scientifically proven now, part of your child’s DNA is within you forever.

As, as men, of course we love our kids unconditionally, but there’s still that difference, the gap, the umbilical cord’s not broken, isn’t it? With, with a mum. So I get all that, but I wanted a dad to say to me, ‘Trev, this is how I feel as well’. ‘Trev, this is what I experienced’. Cause like you said, you women all already bloody do that. Do you know what I mean? 

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, I think it’s fantastic. And I think it’s really important that dads have that space for themselves [00:20:00] to talk about it. However it is that you have to come about talking about it because sometimes you’ll talk about things rather than feelings. So you need to have that space to feel comfortable with each other and find the words because these won’t come naturally to you because like you say, women generally have been practicing this all their lives. This is new, new territory for dads. So I think what you’re doing is brilliant because it’s giving that space and that time for dads to find the words in a space with another dad. And I think that’s really, really helpful. 

So we’ve talked a little bit about the podcast, but I know that that’s only one way really that you’ve found to manage your grief and that you’ve also written poetry. Can you tell me a bit more about your relationship with poetry? 

Yeah, um, again, I suppose being in the arts, it’s always something that’s interested me, you know what I mean? Funny, I used to be quite good at it in school, do you know what I mean? But then you leave it and then I used to go to the spoken word nights, poetry nights, [00:21:00] and I just love the younger generation, the, you know, the rhythm of it and the way that they, you throw things out, you know what I mean? And, uh, I just started to write a couple of poems and then I got invited to go to Delamere Forest to an open, an open poetry event and, uh, a kid called Brian and, uh, Lou Machi who have been quite inspirational in the poetry helping me said, come and do it. I’m like, ‘Oh, I don’t know about that’. Cause as an actor, you’re wearing different hats out here. And it’s, it’s not you, but when you’re doing poetry or even the podcast, it’s you. 

Anyway, I did it, really liked it, so I just started to write loads of stuff. Poetry about Manchester, and how the, the skyline’s changing and the homeless and people like that. And then sorts of things that were going on, you know what I mean? And obviously then boom, Jordan’s transition happened. Uh, so for the first five or six months, like you say, you know, you know yourself, you, you longer, you’re, you’re on the, you’re on the deck aren’t you, you’re on the floor, and yeah, people are going, oh, you know, ‘we’re worried about you. You know, we need to go and talk to somebody and, [00:22:00] you know, have a bit of grief counselling’. 

And it’s like, oh. I was reluctant because you think, again, stoic, heroic man. Oh, no, I’m all right, I’m all right, but I’m not all right. I knew I wasn’t all right. You know, I met one or two counsellors. And then listen, you know, with all due respect to counsellors, I know it worked for some people, it just couldn’t work for me. There wasn’t a connection. 

And the only reason why I say there wasn’t a connection, Deb, is that, yeah, I get grief counsellors understand grief, but not in our scenario. Yeah. You’ve not lost a child. And, you know, like I said, I have to keep emphasizing that people go, you know, I lost my mum or I lost my brother and forget it, I’ve been through the same situation, but you don’t want to sound malicious, but it’s, it’s not the same. We can talk about it, it’s not the same, is it? No. And, and, and so it was like, listen, thanks very much, but it’s not working this, you know? So then, my mate said, listen, you could, you know, a wordsmith, why don’t you do a journal or do poetry? [00:23:00] And that was it, my poetry just came out and it’s, I do feel it’s very cathartic for me.

You know, I go up to Hazell Beach and I walk and then I meditate and I chant and I sit in my car and the sea air just brings something to you, you know, when I write my poems. And I’m quite probably pleased to say last week, um, a friend of mine could help me publish them. 

Oh, that’s fantastic. 

Yeah. So it’s just a little book. Um, it’s entitled Raw. The reason why I called it Raw, Debbie, because that’s how I feel. It’s how Jordan’s transition made me feel. And it’s also about how people made me feel. And in that, there’s obviously a reference to, you know, my relationship with my wife, how people are, they chat to you, and you know, you know, the thing – ‘Anyway, listen, mate, no matter what, have a great day, yeah?’ ‘Listen, I hope the festivals are fantastic and you have a great Christmas’. It’s like, and listen, I understand they don’t mean it maliciously, but one of my poems is called, they don’t know what to say, because they don’t. But with [00:24:00] us, when we go through a certain phase in our grief process, they’re like little triggers, aren’t they?

Yeah. 

I mean, and I’m like, what you on about? Christmas will never be the same for me again, or New Year, or a birthday, you know? So I find it, I find the poetry has been very cathartic for me, you know. 

Would you be able to share one with us today, Trevor? 

Well, funny enough. 

Oh, brilliant. You’ve got something that’s fabulous. Thank you. 

I thought I’d tell about the first poem, which was about Jordan, really, and that started off the whole process. We say in Buddhism about everything happens for a reason. And I think in my head that I think a positive, for want of a better word, that has come out of Jordan’s transition is that now I feel I am a better man in the way that I am, while I conduct myself. I think, sadly, obviously probably a better dad than what, maybe the dad that he might have wanted me to be. I’m not saying that I was a bad dad before, but obviously I think as a dad you’re always critical and I [00:25:00] could have done things better, but circumstances lead you down a certain path. But like I say, I own it after 15 years of therapy and counselling, I own it. You know what I mean? I’m responsible for my own actions and I get it. 

So I think out of this, I mean, it’s like the podcast. I feel like it makes sense to me. What drives you to do it? And I do believe it’s Jordan. So in my poetry, yeah, um, a lot of my stuff comes out. What’s around in my head and how people make me feel, how I feel, et cetera, et cetera.

I first kicked off with this, with this poem. 

Our beautiful son, Jordan, has gone away

back to whence he came 

in amongst the clouds and rainbows floating within the universe 

until it’s time for him to return again. 

Some days we’ll laugh. Some days we’ll cry, 

our eyes will sting, our throat will dry. 

The moon is a metaphorical being, our mind works overtime, [00:26:00] imagining him, we.

He winks at us by the first shining star we see at night,

His smile becomes the warm sun, bright. 

His breath is in the wind, following us as a gentle breeze. 

Observe a wave that crashes against the rocks. 

It leaves the sea for a split second. 

And falls back to begin its cycle again, as if beckoned. 

Our Jordan will be reborn again, and connect with us in his unique way.

And only we will know he’s not really gone away. 

Jordan just needs to regenerate and restore his life’s energy, so we can carry on in another way. 

And show us a sign that’ll make our day. 

 

Oh, that’s absolutely [00:27:00] gorgeous, Trevor. And I closed my eyes when you read that and it’s so vivid and visual. It’s really lovely. And I think that’s the thing that poetry does. It allows you to process things in a different way, doesn’t it? Whether you’re writing or whether you’re listening to it, that was absolutely lovely. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. Really appreciate it. 

And the thing is, one of those, like you say, you know, with the poetry, people think, Oh, I can’t write it.You can write three lines. You don’t have to rhyme. Poetry is poetry. You know, we’re not Keats. You do it as you feel. And then that’s been the great big thing for me. So I think, you know, I say to anybody that, that, you know, whether you’re a newly bereaved parent or whether you’re not, just, you know, write from it, write three or four lines and it is, it does release that thing. And yeah, listen, it can be, it’s emotional when you’re writing it and when you read it and you go, wow, you know, but I think that’s been a big help for me rather than like you say, you know, sit down within this professional setting against someone who we can’t relate to, who we can’t, you [00:28:00] know, and listen, like I said to you, I know they’re doing a great job in their own way, but I think, If you’re going to have grief counselling, my advice will be probably to suss out those who have been through the same process.

You’ve talked to us about what is different for dads, and we know that, you know, men connect in different ways. What do you think you’ve perhaps learnt through doing the podcasts that perhaps you want to share for, you know, what other grieving dads might want to do? And it might be that You know, you want them to listen to the podcast because that’s a really good way to, for them to kind of consider their own stories. But is there anything else that you’ve kind of picked up that you want to share with dads? 

I mean, you answered the question really primarily, it was that about just really listening and, you know, even helping them just by listening, which might resonate and then go, yeah, I will talk about it. Like I say, in my research, I will spoke to couples, you know, and the moms and the wives would go, ‘he don’t speak him, you know. He goes into the garden. He goes play [00:29:00] football. He goes to the pub. He won’t speak about, you know, and it’s not right. And I know he’s struggling’ and blah, blah, blah. You know what I mean? And whatever. Um, so initially, like you say, he wants to start and I want to try and get other dads involved. 

It was a hard task, believe me, you know what I mean?In a lot of ways, and they still got a long, long way to go doing it. Has made me obviously say, yes, there is lots of dads who need to talk. There is a few dads out there who want to talk and give their experience. We all share the same grief. It’s the same, but it’s different. 

And when I speak to some of my guests and often we’ll talk about mums and the wives and how great they are. And I’ll be like, ‘don’t they do your head in women? Because they just talk about, you can talk about anything, can’t they?’ And, you know, and that’s the sad thing about this thing about the macho male crap, you know, I mean, and you know, I’ve always been quite an emotional person in terms of the way that I am.

I mean, people laugh. I watch X [00:30:00] Factor. You know, they go, ‘I’m doing this for my Nana’. Sat there, next minute, there’ll be a tear and my daughter’s like, ‘Are you crying at X Factor?’ ‘No, no, don’t be stupid’. But I think it’s important that we, you know, that men try and convey it to each other. Uh, if I can, I’ll read another one.

Yeah, that would be great. 

None of my poems can be titled. For me, it was just, I want people to think, ‘what stage was he at in his grieving process that he wrote this?’ Remember, it’s pretty, hmm, you know, but that’s why I’ve entitled it Raw, because it is very, very raw. So this one again, okay, so it’s..

Men need to hear, to see, one another cry.

Talk about their grief. 

The what, where, and why. 

Stop being stoic. 

It’s not heroic. 

The taught generation that men don’t cry, but breathe in deeply, then release their exasperated sigh. [00:31:00]

Procrastination of their feelings, always seen to be macho beings, but their subconscious cries of, I just want my mates to listen to me, help me, understand me, don’t judge me.

To be a failure in your world of masculinity, those thoughts bring most men and dads who are grieving privately to their knees. 

Generations of men taught not to show their feelings. 

Shown emotion was frowned upon. 

Even at the death of a precious loved one, a son, a daughter, a father, mother, sister, brother or wife.

Don’t you shed a tear, shit happens in life, was the rhetoric so pathetic, and still today, those words ring in many a men and dads ears. 

Yet mothers gravitate and talk to one another. [00:32:00] 

It’s about time dads start to understand that grief doesn’t discriminate. 

 

Oh it’s so moving, and it’s so powerful to be expressed in poetry. Yeah. It just condenses it all, doesn’t it? It makes you go, yes, that’s right, that’s what it is. It’s like you have to put your finger on it, but metaphorically somehow. 

That’s it. You know, just by someone listening to it, even if they don’t want to talk. But, I’m hoping, within them, something will resonate, and they’ll go ‘Yeah, that’s me’.

Yes. 

I’m not always saying I can’t talk, but this is the way that it is. Or even if they get, even if they can, you know, not even talk to me, but talk to their partners, talk to the, to the mums just a little bit. 

I went on a walk with a, a load of other very parents and I was the only bloke. It was really mad, it was a pretty good for my ego. You know what I mean? Like 20 women and just me. But again, you know, talking to [00:33:00] them and saying about the different scenarios, you know, and how the, how the husbands, how the partners, how the way and all dads. And when people listen to the podcast, I just want dads to take little one sentence, you know, out of it and resonate. And then hopefully, you know, they’ll say, well, you know what, Deb, yeah, I can have a chat with you.

And that’s it, I think even if they’re not really able to have a chat, if they feel that they’ve listened to somebody whose experience resonates with them in some way, it might just relieve some of the tension that they’re carrying in any way, so that they don’t perhaps feel that they need to talk about it, but they understand that they’re not alone.

I’ve seen this thing, right, it was on TV, and it’s about these two lads who’ve lost their children. Um, uh, very early stages, um, I think one was a miscarriage and one was a few months, right? They started this football team called Angels United. So I, so I seen this on the TV and [00:34:00] I’m like, wow, that really interests me now.

So I get contact with them. And then I go, Jake says, ‘yeah, come down and, uh, you know, we’ll have a chat with you and blah, blah’. So they’re having, they’re having a game this one day. And I wandered down there, I have time, these two lads come over, ‘oh hiya, I’m Jake’. So we’re chatting briefly, I said, ‘how many of the dads then have lost their children? Is it just like you two?’ Oh no. The whole team that had the names of the child on the back, the opposition team, the referee and linesmen, and people watching. Debbie, I’m blown away. I’m like, geez. And you know what, what come into my mind? It was like, like, psychologically, we don’t really think about children, our children, dying do we? And then you’re in this thing and you go, there’s a lot more than you think. 

And I’m looking at this football team. And they’re all then going, ‘you could have a world cup’. It is global, isn’t it? I don’t know that tunnel of grief that we have when we just look at yours. And then you go, there’s only a few but when you go into it…No. And it blew my mind [00:35:00] away. They’ve all got the names of the children and they could be from one day old to 20. I think the oldest there was 21. You know what I mean? Because no matter what. Even if you’re 90, you use a child at 70. It’s still your child, isn’t it? 

Yeah, absolutely. It still feels like you say, in the wrong order of things, even just because we’ve been conditioned to expect things that way. How often do you release an episode? 

We try to do one once, once a month, if we can. 

Brilliant. 

Yeah. But again, it’s one of those podcasts which you say, because it’s so raw and emotive, it’s not a thing we really advertise. So a lot of it is by, um, recommendation. So, you know, if you listen to it, you might go, ‘Oh, Actually, this might help so and so, you know what I mean?’

And so then we get feedback by that. If they listen to it, it’s fantastic. And even if they go, you can talk to the, to the mums or even, you know what? Just go write something themselves. I just want dads to know, like you say, you know, listen, you’re not alone. You know what I mean? You’re not alone. There’s people you can talk to.

If you don’t want to talk [00:36:00] to, to listen to the podcast, it might be something that helps you. Text. You know, speaking to one bloke at the moment, just by text, he said, ‘Trev, I’ve listened to your podcast. I think it’s great. I can’t go on it, but can I, can I text you?’ Of course you can. I don’t want dads to feel ostracized.

And I know, like I said, the support of the, of the mums, of the partners are there, you know, without question. But I do, like I said, in this male thing, it’s like, sometimes you do need that, don’t you? that these other blokes, you know, you can talk to. 

Absolutely. You do. I think it’s just important to know, like you say, that you’re not alone, that there is somebody there and that somebody else gets it. I think that’s really important. 

Trevor, we always ask our guests to tell us something that they’re grateful for. So what are you grateful for today? 

Um, I think I’m just grateful for the, for the fact is that I can, I can spread this message really. That is probably just, I’m grateful for the fact is that.

You know, from wherever it is, from wherever it’s come, that I’m able to, to do this, I’m grateful for you for giving me the [00:37:00] opportunity to come out and, and, and speak and pushing it out so that hopefully again, you know, one of the moms on the, on the, on the page might go, ‘Hey, Fred, have a listen to this’ or whatever, you know, do you know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I thought you were going to say you were grateful for Manchester United and I was going to have to edit it. But you know, that’s fine. 

Well, well, well. Not at the moment. Well, you know what? I’m on it now. I don’t believe I can get to it. I’ll give, I’ll give six games before I start, before I go into them.

That was my conversation with Trevor Dwyer Lynch recorded at the end of August, 2024. You can find links to Trevor’s podcast on our episode listing and more information about Angels United, Faith and Grief and Poetry on our webpage at https://bereavedparentsclub.org.uk  Please do rate, comment and share. We need you to share this resource to others who might benefit.

This episode is dedicated to [00:38:00] Jordan.